The right funnel strategies can help you drive traffic, attract new ideal buyers, and move them through the sales funnel towards that big, beautiful BUY button.

Paige Swaffer…AKA The Impact Copywriter…it a conversion copywriter and funnel strategist who specializes in helping train companies and service providers to strategically sell more of their products and services online.

Today we’re talking about what a funnel is as well as your newsletter and simple email automations to grow your list. Boost your trust factor. And turn subscribers into sales.

Grab your notebook and pen, pull your chair up to the kitchen table with us and enjoy the show.


The Impact Copywriter

The Newsletter Planner

For email marketing stats Google:” Email marketing for the year”

The section where I Paige mentions about content  Starting at 24:48 – 26:27


Full transcript (unedited)

Hey there, Paige, welcome to two hands made this.

Hey, Christina, super happy to be here.

I’m excited to have you here, especially this because as a an expert, in our two hands made this podcast, this is a big one. Because we’re going to talk about the importance of funnels, we’re going to talk about the the big importance of newsletters, and how this all fits into the marketing plan for people because there’s not a lot of resources out there to help product makers figure out how to do this. Yeah,

yeah, for sure. And it’s a probably a lot simpler than then, then people think it is. So yeah, I’m super, super excited to like, dive into like, What does actually mean? And, like, how can you apply it to your business? So yeah, that’s

awesome. And you know, the, you said, a really important word there simple. Because makers have, we have so many different hats. And marketing feels so daunting at times. And sometimes it’s like, well, when I get to it, I’ll get to it. And same with like, you know, newsletters and and that type of funnel stuff that we need to do. So the simpler we can make it for them, the easier and more doable it is, the more they’ll see how the winds from it. And that, you know, it doesn’t need to be hard to have an impact. Yeah. So which is why we’re talking to the impact copywriter. So Paige, can you talk a little bit about you know, when I talked to the tour makers, we talked about, you know, that the the kitchen table moments, so you know, as the expert in your specialty, you also have that kitchen table moment, when you’re sitting there going, you know what, this makes sense to me, this is what I want to do with my business, and this is how I want to help other people. So can you talk about that just a little bit before we really dive into the work that you do with people?

Yeah, like those epiphanies? You mean? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I have those every so often. So assuming that is slightly different, being in cyberspace business, then the people who are most likely watching or listening to this episode, you know, I’m in constant exploration mode and figuring out well, could I do something different, better, something that brings more joy to me, because that’s kind of how I lead my life now is focusing on what brings me joy, which I assume that that is something that I share with your listeners is that they are making what they make because it brings them joy in some way.

Oh, definitely. Um, yeah.

Is there something like specific that you want to know?

Well, you know, because, you know, you’re, you’re, you’re a copywriter, you know, we met because we write, copy. But, you know, you’ve really honed in your specialty and working with people, because you’ve noticed that, you know, there are certain things that people are not doing that they need to do. And you’ve got you’ve really, yes, you’ve you’ve recognized, you’ve honed in on that, and you are working with people to strategize and really make that part of their business now, because it’s really not that hard. You know, so when you look at, you know, oh, I think I’ll do funnels, I won’t just write copy. You know, this is a very specific part of the whole strategy as far as marketing and copy and all that that you’ve landed on, because it really is such an important piece. Yeah.

And I think it’s, it’s really just kind of going up a level, if you think in terms of taking more of a bird’s eye view or more of like the helicopter view. Most likely, I once weeks, we talked about funnels, and like what they actually are, in many cases, people already have them, they may not be have been intentionally set up. But they are, like already present in the business. Like they’re just a series of steps, right? So. So it’s just like a strategic perspective, that comes a little bit further, like a bit a little bit higher up that you need to look at, like in terms of the system, or your pathway. And then the copy comes a little bit later, once you understand like, what that structure looks like and what the pieces are, and then then you start working on the messaging.

And I think people get really, I don’t want to say scared, but they get daunted by it, they think it’s Oh, this big thing that I have to do. I’ll never get it, I’ll never understand it, but you describe it and you set it up with people in such a way that’s very simple. And I think, you know, that’s, that’s the one thing that we’re talking about today is how this can be simple, how you can improve your marketing by you know, x percentage, because you’re doing this because you really you know, when we talk about conversions, and we talk about getting more sales, and we get talking about getting out there more, it really is part of this system and for everybody listening page is the most amazing systems person I know. So we’re gonna get into that in a little bit. And we have a little something in the show notes for you as well to help you put together your newsletter system that page is created to put together your newsletter. So that’s down in the show notes, but, you know, that’s I think the thing that people have a hard time with and you make it so simple and creative. That system. So can we talk a little bit about let’s let’s first, let’s define what a funnel is for people, most people don’t think, you know, it’s a higher level marketing thing, and only corporations do it and why, you know, as a product manufacturer, would I do it, but it’s all part of just a simple system for marketing?

Yeah. Well, the way I define it really is a funnel is more like a pathway or a series of steps that that a person takes from becoming a stranger to a buyer. And that’s it. And so, depending on what type of business you have, and depending on like, what that buyers process looks like, your funnel may be really short, like in in number of steps and in time to go through it, right. Or it could be, you know, months and months and months up till you know, like long sales cycles in terms of like up think b2b like corporations and such. They have like year or plus cell cycle. So that’s a much longer we could we could include that in the funnel. A lot of times when I talk about the funnel, I’m just talking about, you know, what happens in the online context, not necessarily offline, and in sort of sales conversations, which for your listeners, is like, where everything happens anyway, because they’re not doing the drug sales they’re doing, right, you know, Instagram or keyword ads or whatnot, to their product pages, category pages, you know, whatever pages on their, on their site, and then by the checkout process, and all of that. So everything happens in online context. Yep.

And especially now, because we do have some brick and mortars that, you know, always had an online store, but this past year, have really, you know, I mean, we’ve had really pivot and really switch makers are seeing, you know, some of the brick and mortar stores are closed for either a while or they’ve had to really switch from, that was all their business to not a lot online. And now everything is going to be online. So this is a really important piece for that.

Yeah, you’re sure. And you know, the trend has been that way. For a while. It’s just, you know, everything in the context of the shutdown and everything last year, just made it more of a necessity, I guess, kind of sped up the timeline? I guess. So yeah. So it’s definitely relevant for people who do just online, and those who are kind of transitioning to have both of them in their business so that they’re not so dependent on the in person, kind of walk ins and visits to the store.

Right? Right, right. Because you don’t want to put this even simpler context when it comes to and I mean, it kind of works the same. If you’re talking about walking into a store or your online store, it’s just how people find you. So how are people finding you then they walk in you say, Hi, you shake their hand or welcome, come on into the store may bump elbows now, shake hands anymore. You know, so So really, for product makers, it’s it’s a shorter selling cycle. Yeah, but it is also important, because you’re really building you’re building the relationship first, which is part of that whole online piece that we need to talk about, because it feels harder for people to build that relationship online. Especially if you’re used to maybe having events or seeing people face to face, it feels like it’s a shorter cycle. So you know, part of the thing I want to be able to do, too, is help people feel comfortable in that online space. And it’s just as easy to create that online as it is in person. Yeah.

And maybe even, I mean, I would argue maybe even slightly easier, because your reach is so much. So much bigger, and you can replicate. I mean, with the video, I mean, you can replicate that same experience, you’re not face to face, but the the effect that it has, is very similar, in my experience, watching videos and becoming more acquainted with certain brands, in whatever sector, whatever industry, you know, I trust them just by watching videos, or seeing the things that they’re sharing, maybe on their Instagram page. And I don’t necessarily need to see them face to face. So it’s, to me, it seems to be somewhat easier to do it that way, then, or even just the same amount of you know, like, it’s not like it works like less well. But in my experience, it works better. You know,

and that’s such a good point, because we talk to people all the time about how important it is to you know, get comfortable with video. I know a lot of people aren’t but you just have to almost like do it anyway. But that point you make is really good. It’s it you know, people people feel as if video is like you’re, you’re on stage or you’re, you know, you’re making a show or something like that. But really, in order to feel even a little bit more more comfortable. Just think of it as think of think of the person on the other end of whatever, you know, whoever’s viewing it is your wonderful customer.


like you are doing some like an in person demo or something like that. And I think it just gets better with practice, like, depending on your personality, of course, some people are super extroverted, and they’re like, oh, video like awesome, like there’s not a second thought to it. I was not like that I’m much more comfortable on video. Now that I was several years ago, but just like the, that the act of just starting where you can start, and for me like I still don’t do live video because I’m not comfortable live I like to be able to record and know that I can edit it later and edit out all the stuff and I’m like those segments I said that twice or I didn’t say that in exact right way or something like that. But you know, whatever gives you enough of a, like comfortability factor, I guess so that you can move forward and not be so far out of your comfort zone that you you’re super paralyzed to move forward.

You know, that’s such a good point. You don’t necessarily have to start with lives yet you can, you can record it and edit it and then put it up to your Facebook or Instagram or whatever else you’re on. So the comfortability factor, that’s hard to say, yeah, it’s a really good point. So you know, everybody listening, you know, you have to be on video, maybe it is a little bit more comfortable to to record your message, edit it, and then put it up. So what a good point that is page. I didn’t like really think of it that way. But yes, that’s awesome. Because again, when we talk about before we, you know, really talking to the, you know, the importance of, you know, getting your newsletter out there, we really want to build that audience. So what does what what does a simple funnel look like for product makers, especially as they’re, as they’re moving online, maybe, you know, and again, they’re moving, they’re not hobbyists anymore. You know, they’ve been, they’ve been making sales. And they’ve been doing this for a little bit, you know, but now they’re starting to move into that six, that seven, you know, that their businesses are growing. And so it looks a little bit different. And they have to be more consistent. And they have to create a system for this so that they can repeat it time and time again, without having it feel hard. Yeah.

So if we talk in terms of so I wouldn’t say that there’s some like master funnel, that is going to govern the whole business. So when I talk, in terms of funnels, I used to call them micro funnels, because it really depends on context. And you might think of it in terms of like campaigns, that might be more familiar term for for makers, because it really depends on Well, what is my starting point? So what’s my traffic source? So are we doing keyword search ads, or showing up like, the other day, I was searching for knee high boots. So I went to Google and I typed in knee high boots with like, with wide calf, because that’s something that I need. And then so the search results, they brought up some ads, and then some the ones that were ranking, the highest and the one I clicked on led me to a category page for a specific retailer. So that’s an example of like coming from a specific keyword term in terms of Google search, whether using ads or organic doesn’t matter. Or, you know, another scenario is that you’re, you’re using Instagram posts, or ads, or stories or you know, sponsored in some way, via Instagram, and most often, Instagram, you’re posting something specific, right? A specific item or collection of items. So you’re most likely going to go directly from an Instagram ad to a product page. Right? And so that, so it depends on context, right? So it depends on like, what are you optimizing for, like, Where is that starting point? And then what are the steps that you need to include? To take them from that starting point to like to the checkout? And so, you know, in both of those scenarios, you had an ad or a some sort of traffic source?

And then you Yeah,

yeah, or post, and then you lead them either to a product page or category page, depending on the context, right? And then that’s kind of it until they, you know, they go to the checkout process. So they add to cart and then then do the checkout. However, whatever system you’re using, right, so so that’s several steps.

So that’s like a much shorter pathway than what we see for like, online courses, where you have a lead magnet that you promote, and you have follow up emails, and then you have maybe a webinar and you have some more sales emails, and then you hit a sales page. So it’s like a much longer, more involved more steps, right? So the good news about that is that it’s really simple. Like for makers, it’s super simple, super short, you already have category pages and product pages. You’re already using those, you just need to optimize them, you know, for persuasion, right? So that’s what you do that you do the talk about, you know, how to write amazing, like product listing pages. And so one thing that I noticed because I did ask you for some examples of shots, so I could go look at people’s pages and see what they’re doing is.

So a good way to if we’re talking about newsletters, newsletters, and we’re going to transition into that. So how do you build your newsletter list, right and so one way Yeah, so one of the most important one of the most used, I guess, method for doing that, for makers and for retailers in this kind of context is to do the discount for the email address. So, yes, I know. I’m not saying it’s like the best strategy, it does work, right, because there are lots of people using it, I have used it to buy things. So I bought her like a really nice coffee machine. I think it was from Bed Bath and Beyond, or something similar. And they offered, you know, like, we had looked at it, and we were like, maybe we’ll, we’ll look around, and then you know, they offered the pop up the exit intent pop up, 20% off, you know, to get the code, you enter your email address, and we bought it. So it works. Right.

So here’s a good point, because I want to break into this because, you know, especially when you when you talk about artesanal, product manufacturers, you know, we’re not talking about commodity products, we’re talking about artistical products, and yes, you know, because it’s kind of the thing that’s in the pop up template, and everybody’s doing it that you need to, so that you need to put up a discount, because that’s what people are looking for when actually in surveys we’re finding, especially with artisans, that they’re not like the discount doesn’t really persuade them to buy one way or another. Because they’re searching specifically for you know, it’s a, it’s a, again, it’s an artistical product, it’s not commodity, people are really happy to pay full price, because it’s something that’s unique and different, and you can’t get it anywhere. So they’re really open to supporting the the maker. So let’s talk about that a little bit now that we’re talking because yes, we have those simple funnels for buying right you goes from, like you said, You’re whether it’s an ad or a post, and it’s coming right to a product page, and people can read through it, and then go to buy. And that’s more, you know, for people that know, maybe know your product a little bit more than I’ve searched for it. So let’s talk about that piece that we’re you know, when people don’t quite know you yet, and you’re building your list, and you’re trying to build your you know, those prospects to come on to your list. Let’s start with something other than a discount. So I know Paige, you’re really good at this, because I love I love the way you set these up. So what are some of the things you know, again, we’re really talking about unique and we’re gonna start, you know, this funnel, you know, this, this process that we’re talking about bringing people in? So they’re going to sign up for your newsletter, what are some of the things people can say, other than, you know, to entice people to join? That’s not, hey, grab my 10% discount? Yeah,

so let’s back up just a little bit. And so, discounts aside, right. So that’s just the offer, right for getting on the newsletter, is that I noticed that the people’s website that I went to, that you shared, they’re not using any sort of exit intent pop up. And so you can think of the exit intent pop up is kind of like a down sale, in a way, even though it’s free, right? Because you’re trying to encourage people who aren’t buying to get on your list, with some sort of incentive. So that’s a great way to get people who are looking, but maybe not ready to buy, you know, you know, whatever the scenario, is there a way to grow your list with people who could be potential buyers, because of course, once they buy it, and they input their information, and they’re added to like a buyer’s list or a buyer segment, so you get them on your list either way. So that’s just kind of kind of the mechanism for how to capture people who are abandoning the product page and not moving forward yet into the buyers process. I will say I’m not a super huge fan of the, like the always discounting method of like our list now for like a clothing brand I love because I love the way everything fits. It’s not at all the same type of makers that you are making this episode for, because it’s more of a, you know, mass produced, big, big retailer. And but every you know, every email, they send me and they send me daily emails maybe

multiple once a day.

It’s about discounting, right? And so as a business owner, that’s not something I would use in my business, because it does train people to expect discounts. Yeah, and it does degrade the value of your, of your stuff. Right. So

and I’ll come down

to that comment.

Yeah, from personal experience, like, now that I see that they have, they offer discounts every day, like I don’t buy anything full price, you know, because they’ve trained me to expect that and, you know, knowing just a little bit about the industry, you know, that they’re padding their margins in a way that they can offer that and still like, do well in business. So So I will say that like discounting like heavily discounted model is not something that I’m a huge fan of. Also, despite what is popular in the industry,

you know, this is what people see. So they don’t know how to change it. So and this is why I’m so glad that you’re here and that you’re talking about this because You need to be different. And you have to need to do what works for your audience. Right?

Yeah, what works for you and your audience? What works for your business, because I’m not necessarily in the homeschool, of like everyone has to fit into a specific mold. I think there are many ways to be successful. And so, you know, we can talk about some different ideas that people could consider doing in order to like, if you have that, you know, that exit intent pop up, or if you’re doing some sort of lead magnet strategy, like what could you offer people to get them on that list so that you can continue to follow up with them and share your story and stuff. But I would say that, like, most important thing is just test it, like test a discount against some other idea to see what’s actually going to work right. And, and result in like, more, you know, return on effort to time, whatever you’re using right return in terms of like real numbers, because it is tempting for us to like, we have these certain kind of ideas about what does and doesn’t work, but until we like actually put it hopefully, values aside, right? Sometimes you just say this works, but I’m not gonna do it. Because it makes me feel achy.

That too, yeah, totally. That’s

totally valid. Like, if something makes you feel terrible, don’t do it. Like just doesn’t matter if it works like it’s something else will work to. Right, right. So

it may work if you find it achy, you won’t work it to make it Yeah,

like this whole mindset thing about self sabotage and all that so. So definitely, if it feels terrible, like, you have our permission not to do it, even if it works, even if other people are doing it, you know, blaze a new path, find something that works for you. And, you know, go out with the with the idea of like, let’s experiment and find something that’s gonna make me happy and, you know, bring in the customers.

So yeah, so.

So this is, so we’re gonna be like in the ideation phase, right? Because the discount is for sure what most people are using. So I would say it would be kind of beneficial to look at other industries to see like, how, what are they doing? And so get out of the makerspace or other retail space, look at service providers look, at course creators look at, you know, different types of businesses to see what you know, how are they getting people on their list, so that, like, you can see if there’s some inspiration that you could bring in your business

totally. And like what I first did, when I had my my product business, one of the first things I did was the, the basics to buff and beautiful skin. So I gave them a guide on not only was it about skincare, but it was about food and exercise, and all these other things that they could do, to help really take care of their skin from the inside out. So you know, that’s what we mean by you know, when we’re talking about other ideas, it could be, you don’t necessarily have to do a guide, you know, page pages, page has another video, which I’ll link in here talking about, you know, just calling people into your newsletter, but you know, giving them you know, all the news on the natural product ingredients we use, or, you know, get more on how candles can light up your life and our weekly newsletters, you know, those kind of things is what we’re talking about as well, not just about a discount, but how what your audience is really looking for, that’s going to capture their interest, and say, Okay, I want to know more about this product.

Yeah, it’s more like a practical application of your products without being super specific, right? Because of course, you’re going to be dropping in your products in your guide, or in the emails or whatever format that that’s going to take, but there needs to be like a strong overlap between what you sell, and like how people use that in their life. And then what the content or the topic of the, the freebie or the free training or the free guide or brochure or whatever it is. So you said you were selling skincare products, right? Yeah, and this. And so you’re obviously it was about like, how to have healthy glowing, beautiful skin or an easy skincare routine for working moms or, you know, like, exactly,


you know, you know, what, what topic does your product kind of fall into? And then who are who are your best customers, right? So, if you find that your research says that single moms or working moms or you know, whoever they are, then you want to be more specific as you can get right without excluding people. So, you know, keeping in mind like who’s your best customers or what customer groups you have in your business and Yep, what you’re selling?

Yep, yep, yep, totally, totally. And that’s, that’s how important it is to become, you know, to learn about your audience and become specific when it comes to that because you can speak to them in such a way that’s not generic, that, you know, you’re really starting to educate, inform, you know, especially these potential people that maybe they haven’t bought from you yet, so that they do become those loyal and lifetime customers. So So let’s talk about that a little bit more. So we’re talking about, you know, the the getting people You’re listening, I want to kind of pivot a little bit here and really talk about newsletters, because it is such an important piece to your marketing plan, right. And I think people don’t give newsletters of credit they deserve. Because I mean, the conversion rate for a newsletter can be pretty high. Again, consistent with it. You know, so let’s talk about you know, it’s it’s part of our funnel? And how can how can just your simple newsletter, this kind of like this top of the funnel, right? Would you call it the top of the funnel?

Probably, yeah. Kind of middle, top to middle somewhere. Right? You know, they’re already in your world. And it’s more like consideration kind of stage. So yeah, somewhere around there.

Right? Right. So they may be seeing you, you know, they’ve seen your post on Instagram, or Facebook, or they’ve seen an ad, they’re coming to your product page. They don’t really know enough about you yet, but they’re learning and now they decide, oh, I want to know more. So I am going to get on, I’m going to give you my email address, and I’m gonna get on your list. And this is where the nurturing comes in. This is where the importance of the newsletters and marketing piece really comes into play. So when we start doing that, you know, we’re informing them, we’re not selling all the time. And the thing with makers is that so many of them, they’re like, I don’t want to sound salesy. I don’t want to send out a gazillion emails, because my list won’t like it. I don’t want to turn anybody off. So can you talk about that a little bit? Because you don’t have to send daily or four times a day emails? You know? Yeah, so let’s talk about that a little bit.

Yeah. So I will say that there are so many stats to backup, you know, how much email marketing can do for your business, like in terms of ROI. And so if you’re just curious about that, just type in email marketing stats for the year, and you can find just a whole bunch of, of stats to show that email is worth, you know, investing in time, effort, money, and all that. So, one of the, like, most important things that I find with newsletters is consistency. And so that doesn’t mean you have to email every day. And you know, if you’re out and I will say, like, with that retailer, I mentioned earlier, like, the daily emails are getting a little annoying, right? Yes, they’re getting a little annoying. Even though I love the brand, and I love the clothes, like, yeah, I could take less emails a week, right? So, so you absolutely can start with like, one time a week, and then experiment from there. based on you know, the size of your team, of course, you have to do what you can realistically do, unless you’re willing to bring on someone to write your email newsletters, like you’re seeing here. And it really is an experimentation game. But we do see that, like, once a week is like a good minimum right to stay. Because, you know, in the span of a week, it doesn’t sound like a lot. But if you think about like what you ate for lunch last week, today, last week, most likely you can’t remember because it doesn’t sound like a lot. But it is because a lot happens in a week’s time.

So we’re getting us to stay top of mind for our customers really, right?

Well, to stay top of mind, but not just that, because we’re talking about products that are unique and special. And they have a story and they’re not just you know, made in China and shipped over here to serve like a mass market. Like, there’s a story about the founder and why the founder started that and how it’s made and the ingredients and maybe you’re involved in the community, like maybe you have some kind of special community programs or, you know, things like that. So there’s, there’s a lot of things to tell. And so it’s not just about brand awareness, either, because, you know, there’s some kind of educational component in there. Like do your customers understand why specific ingredients are important that they understand that the benefits that they bring to their life. And so there’s, you’re really kind of creating a more sophisticated buyer, or like your, your more educated buyer, so that they understand, like, why what makes you different is important.

This page just told you about, there’s so much content right now that you can create from what Paige just said. So I know because a lot of makers are like, but what do I say, and so go back and listen to what just pages said, Now mark it in the show notes as well. Because that’s important, you know, because you really are, you’re not a mass produce product, you’re really telling somebody about your passion and why you’re doing it for them and what it means for them. And, again, educating them on the ingredients or whatever it is you’re making, or why it’s important or the value what you bring. So there’s a lot you can talk about in these emails, and not just sell. Because I know again, makers are really, you know, aware, like you said page that all these emails that you’re getting, it’s a little bit too much, you know, so again, you’re really creative. value in these emails, you’re not just selling all the time.


And that’s I mean, that’s a good approach to take, like a mentality to take all the time, I think is that it’s always about, because in that process you are selling because there is some compounding of, I mean, when you buy something, you do have to know some things about it, right? So, education is a part of selling, but you don’t have to be pushy about it. You don’t have to, like mimic like a cart, you know, the old school car salesman, type of stuff that just makes you want to cringe when you think about that experience and being that So

speaking of that, so let’s, I mean, I don’t want to cut you off, because that just makes me think of some of those really ugly cry moments that people come to you for because people don’t want to sound like that used car salesman, and, you know, they need help with how can I do this better? You know, so what are some of the things that you’ve experienced as far as people and you’ve had to work to help them change that? Well,

I will say that I do get some people who have no problem with the the super salesy, like hyper hyped up, kind of borderline, like lying type, oh, marketing, which I always say that, that I don’t do that. So if that’s really what you want to get somewhere else. But yeah, just a just very simple things like, I want to sound genuine, or I want to be authentic. A lot of people come to me, like, look at having looked at my website and say, I want to sound like you, huh. So like, how do you sound confident in your product, without like hyping it up to be something it’s not or to feel like you’re so it’s like a balance of riding with confidence, but in a way that’s very genuine and approachable. And of course, those are brand things, right? Because not all brands have the label of genuine, approachable, friendly. I know the

makers are like that, I mean, that’s concerned for them. So you’re really like creating those conversations that you’d like to have face to face with somebody.

Yeah, and honestly, if you can sit down to write and just picture in your mind, like someone you’re comfortable talking to about your products, like someone that you know, in real life, and just write like you’re writing to them just like as a rough draft, then a lot of times you’ll get that result that you’re looking for, because you’re putting yourself in the mindset of Oh, I’m talking to this person, this is my message to Sarah, like if Sarah’s your friend, right? And then you can go back in and kind of shape it up a little bit. But it does help you get out of the mindset of Oh, I have to sell I have to sit down and write to sell

every single time. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And though you do need to write those sales emails. But again, it doesn’t like if you’re having a special promo or your spot, you know, you’ve got you’re launching a new product or you know, it’s coming around a specific holiday, you know, you will have to sell but like like pages, just saying, but you can do that without sounding pushy or salesy. Yeah, you can create a story around it. Because that’s really what the goal that we’re talking about here with funnels and you know, your newsletter has a point, it’s not just there to, you know, be cute and fun. And, you know, storytelling II, you know, you’re using it as a marketing tool to sell your products. So that’s what page is really talking about, too, is that it’s it doesn’t have to be salesy.

No, it can sound very similar to your educational emails, it’s just the way you set up the emails just slightly different, because the goal is different, right, you’re sending them to a product page or whatnot. And just letting them know that, hey, you have this special promo going on, and, you know, etc, when, like tip that I would recommend is because it’s like such a great context, like what your product makers do. Because they can also experience that same context as a buyer. So if you think about because you can start if you start to look at it from the other, like other perspective, like step out of your maker shoes for a second, and then go look at some brands that you love and brands that you hate, like as a buyer and look at well what is it I love about this brand? What does I love about the the way they talk to me or how they market because that can be even in some like a completely different type of product category, right? So actually, that would be more beneficial because then you’re not comparing yourself to them. You’re not like afraid, like you don’t want to copy them. So like in terms of like my business, a lot of times I take inspiration from people who are outside the copywriting world, so I’ll look at like Fitness Trainers, or you know, people doing something completely different than me because I can take inspiration from there without feeling that comparison or feeling like well, I want to do something like this, but I don’t want to copy them. You know, so like, Good

point. Good play can be

helpful that way. Yeah. Right.

So for example, if you’re, you know, if you make lotions or candles or something like that, you can go to an artisan snack food and look at them if there’s something that that that inspires you, you know, so you know, just keep You keep an open mind as to what that looks like and what inspires you. Yeah.

And, like reverse engineer, in a sense, like why you buy from other companies that are, you know, in the similar kind of artesanal unique space? would be that would be more useful, right? But why do you buy from them? What is it you love about them? And then it’s even helpful to look like at the end the other end of the spectrum? Why don’t you buy from these people? What is it you don’t like about these people? What is it about their messaging or the way they market to you, that turns you off, because that can be insanely helpful, because you can just flip it, I absolutely hate the way they do this. So what I really like is the opposite of that. So both of those can be really strong ways to sort of approach what you could be doing. In your marketing.

Yes, perfect, perfect. Because again, it does feel hard, but that, you know, what Peter’s talking about is actually very simple. You know, again, it’s those conversations and those things that you’re saying to people, to help them understand your product a little bit more, to understand what it can do for their lives. And then you’re writing those emails and connecting your product to the story in some way, shape, or form. And really, that’s kind of what this funnel is that we’re talking about. It’s not hard. It’s bringing that conversation from that first point of introduction, right? To Hey, this is what we do, and to a point at which eventually, they’re going to buy from you. Because we know that 95% of the time when people land on a product page, they’re not going to buy, especially if they don’t know you. So that’s what this is all about. This is just really, really building that customer relationship in an easy way that feels doable for you. Yeah, because you know, that you’ll do on a consistent basis. Because it really is, I mean, the stats are out there. You know, and why we’re talking about this way, as far as newsletters and email campaigns is because it’s 40 times, it’s still, I think, the status still that way, it’s 40 times more effective than just doing, you know, social media campaign or running an ad or whatever. So that’s why it’s important to get in the habit of doing this. Yeah.

I and yeah, and it’s just like, if you talk about, I’m not sure we talked about this before, we own channels, owned channels, versus like rented channels. So, you know, email is considered a channel that you own, just like your website is, instead of like rented channels, which are like platforms like Instagram, Facebook, that, you know, Instagram could decide that they’re gonna shut down. And then if that’s where all your like customer or prospect base is, and you haven’t built an email list, then you just kind of lose that overnight. So it’s like an important channel that’s more reliable in those terms. And it’s also easier to reach people because, you know, they’re filtering their, their inboxes. But on Instagram, you in face, especially Facebook, like the the reach of posts for business pages has gone way down, way down, because they want you to pay to play. So you’re not affected in that way. With email, like you are like on social media platforms.

Right, right. Perfect. I’m so glad you said that. Because, you know, so many people are on social and, you know, oh, gosh, do I have to you know, don’t have to pay for ads, but there’s an art you can do this organically without paying? Yeah, you know, if you’re if you’re setting up your, you know, again, your conversations, you know, this, this system of conversations that you’re bringing people in is your funnel. So, um, so can you do you have a few examples in mind of people that have started, like, they’re confused, they don’t know what to do at work? Can I start? You know, those few simple things that you’ve talked about and what it’s done for them? I like the kind of results they’re seeing, you know, like, okay, you know, this person came in frustrated and upset because they weren’t getting the reach they wanted or, you know, they’re frustrated with Instagram, and they really wanted to build their list.

I say that you mean, in terms of like real case studies?

Yeah. Yeah. Like, I just don’t, you know, like a couple people that you can think of are couple brands that you can think of that, you know, because we, when we talk about marketing, especially on the podcast, we talk about, you know, those ugly cries of failed campaigns, and then those sweet successes. And you know, we want to talk about that in real terms, because we know those ugly cries are out there and how frustrating they are and how they can almost make us feel like we want to quit, but we don’t want to quit, we just want to we just want to change the way we’re doing things. So it does. So it does turn into a sweet success.

Yeah. In terms of real case studies, nothing comes to mind. I mean, you can find, yeah, you can find those stories like searching online. But in terms of brands, like that I’ve worked with personally. I’m not usually so involved in that broad of a in terms right So I’m more working on the pathway. So what you’re talking about is more of like, broader marketing, like marketing plan, what I would call like a broader, like marketing system, let’s say.

And so so I wouldn’t have the knowledge of like that specific specific that terms, but what does you know, just even those like from from a person that can’t, because this is how we really want to help makers understand that, it’s really just all about your system, it’s really just trying something, having it work or not work and understanding what that looks like, and then changing it. So you know, again, that system of you know, creating your newsletter or that that that funnel from a campaign, going to a sales page, I mean, going to your product page or something like that. It just being really consistent and really understanding what that pathway looks like.

Yeah, I would definitely say consistency is a huge thing. with anything in marketing, definitely, you want to focus on consistency, because you do take it does take some time, right? Especially like, if you don’t have any kind of marketing momentum going on, it takes time to build to build that momentum, so that it actually starts to pay off. Even just from my business specifically, even though I’m not a maker, per se, um, you know, I was putting out videos for several years before they ever started to generate organic traffic from Google. And I was, you know, it, I didn’t even do anything special to try to get organic traffic, I’m not focusing on SEO or anything like that. But it was just the consistency eventually, like hit a threshold point or a tipping point to where it started to bring people back to my website. And it’s the same thing with, with Instagram, like, if you’re being more consistent with your posting, and you’re sharing and, and stuff, like in organic terms I have experienced it, the more consistent consistent that I am, the more that I start to bring in followers, and I’m not doing any sort of those follow follow backs type of, you know, those things that that would take you hours to sit down and do an Instagram that, you know, followers is a vanity metric, right? So what you really want is subscribers and customers. So, so things like that. So definitely consistency is one. And then depending on what stage of business you’re in, so if you’re like a smaller business with a small team, or maybe you’re on your own, or just you and one other person, then you want to get really strategic about the channels that you’re on, you don’t have to be everywhere you want to be in the most relevant places. So like 123 channels, right?

Good point.

Yeah. And the consistent. Yeah, and then be consistent on those. And so in terms of marketing, like, that’s where I would focus, like, figure out Where’s your most relevant three channels, and, or even to, like, if you got too strong, relevant channels, focus on those and really hit those, like, in a very intense way. I don’t know what word I was looking for, but a very intense way. And you know, be consistent in your execution. You know, telling me you’re doing videos to tell your story, or doing product demos, or doing educational, you know, videos or posts or even like taking it like maybe you’re talking more about skincare if you don’t tell SK sells skincare products, then maybe like you’re a little bit, it’s more, you’re branching out a little bit for your to talk more about like skincare in general. And then you’ll plug in your product in.

Yep. Yep. Which is what actually what I used to do, I used to talk a lot about skincare and ingredients especially. And what that can do for you how it can help, how can you can feel better. And then, you know, everything would point back to maybe a specific product that, you know, hey, if you’re interested in you know, for for body lotion, you know, go here. So yeah, that’s exactly the thing that I used to do. And it works so well. Yeah. And I was very consistent. And that’s what helped build my business was because I talked about things that people were concerned about, you know, it wasn’t just a sale, you know, it wasn’t just a sale was building this community of people and we talking about it. And really, again, that’s what a simple, you know, what we’re talking about here is just a simple way of bringing people into the fold of your business so that they can buy from you.


and, and it’s more like, at least it seems to me because you’re if you’ve already have a shop online, you already have product pages, you already have the category pages just in terms of functionality, right because it’s already created. You know, with the exception of needing to optimize those like your your the copy use there maybe pulling in more proof. That’s always something that I see could be done better on most sites. Yeah. Yeah, pulling in more proof. You know, those things already exist for you. So you just have to we mean, you think in terms of funnels, you know, if you’re doing like, let’s say this next coming month you’re focused on a particular product, and you’re going to be creating content around that particular product, then, you know, like, let’s say on Instagram, you need to be sending people to that particular product page, right? So, yep, it’s super simple and super logical. And then if you want to, like develop a sort of freebie to grow your list around that product, then you create something that’s related to, like a topic, maybe it’s an educational topic around.


I don’t know, if you’re doing soaps, then maybe it’s like about skincare, or some kind of self care routine that involves or,

like, yeah, like self care, you know, why, why handmade soap is better than mass produce. So for you know, it could be anything like that, right? That you’re educating your customer about?

Yeah. And the more you understand and research, your ideal customer and the context around that, then the better the content and the the freebies that you can create, because you will know what they think already, like, what are they using, what kind of things do they believe about this product area that maybe aren’t true, or that they need to know to realize the value that your product is. So for example, I worked with a brand that they they worked in the haircare space, but they they weren’t selling products, they were selling more like training. So it was a very unique, like, it was very unique business because they were doing something that normally you would say they sell a product around haircare, they were actually selling training around her. And one of the emails that are optimized for them was about salt. And the biggest problem for this for this customer group was like their damaged hair like really, really damaged, like extremely damaged hair. And so this email was about salt hiding, like how bad salt is for your hair, and how most shampoos included, and how it dries out the hair. And it makes it brittle. And, you know, that’s something that people don’t know, like, I didn’t know that, I didn’t know that almost every shampoo that I would buy from anywhere would have salt in it. And in you know, with prolonged to use for lots of people, it would dry your hair out to the point of you know, destroying it in you. So it didn’t look healthy anymore. And so that’s just like an example of like how you can, if you know your customer base, then you know that there are things that they need to know, in order to see why you’re better, different, unique, special, those kinds of things. So definitely, we’re gonna plug in that research component there, because a lot of people don’t do it. And it’s so important. It’s so important. So that’s a really good piece of this too, is do your research and educate your people on on what you find and why it’s beneficial for them.

I mean, you’ll have content all day long. Yeah, as well, you have content. And then all you have to do is say, but in our products, we don’t do that. Here’s the you know, what we use in our products. If you you know, if you want to try, you know, click, click here, and then give a link back to your product. So that’s, and again, it’s so simple. And that’s what we’re trying to express here is that how you know this for you is repeatable. It’s simple. You can do this all you know, every week with something new, something different, something educational, something that’s helping them understand, you know, the benefits of you, and maybe some of the stuff that they’re using, why that’s not as good for them. So, again, it’s just, it’s just a matter of looking and doing the research. And again, just setting up that simple repeatable system that we’re talking about here and having those conversations. So that’s really cool. I love that you brought you brought that up. Alright, so as we meet God, we could the thing with our conversations, we could just talk about stuff for hours, we could so so I know. And you’ve got a bunch of notes, what page What am I forgetting to ask you here? We’ve talked about like, you know, you’re letting people know that really what a funnel is because not every maker uses that term. But you know, as you grow your business, you’re going to hear it more and more, you know, as you develop and as you’re developing your marketing plans and things like that, you’re going to, let’s see, we touched on that we touched about getting people on your list from those sources. So that’s part of the funnel as well. So whether it’s from your social media, or you know, Google search, or however they come in the importance of you know, having your pieces ready, when they connect with you. And then of course, your email, right, your newsletter and all that. I mean, these are those real simple ways to build your build, build on your marketing without having to put I don’t know, I want to say this. And that effort you have to put effort in has to be consistent, but it’s not hard. Yeah.

Right. It’s not as much work as it sounds like it is. Yeah. In most, I mean, in most cases, right. Like you’re doing super high quality professional video shoots and stuff. Of course, that’s a lot of work.

But we’re not doing

Well, I mean, whatever you need to do to fit your brand, and your, your ideal, your ideal buyer, ideal customer, or whatever you need to do to get started. So don’t let super high quality videos be what stands in the way of getting done what you need to get done. So maybe like in terms of system, it’s like super useful to get down, like what are the things you need to take off every week or so you know, if you’re sending one email newsletter, like having that, that as a criteria, maybe you’re posting a new video every week on Instagram, maybe you’re also sharing it to your Facebook page. Maybe you’re uploading that same video to your YouTube. So content repurposing, right. And maybe you’re posting you know, a few more times, however many you’ll be specific, like I’m going to post three times a week on Instagram. You could even get even more specific if it’s useful. Like I’m going to talk about an ingredient in one post, I’m going to talk about application per, you know, in context of how you can incorporate this into your life in one post, etc. So if that’s useful, like you said earlier, do a demo. Yes, a product demo. Yeah. So if that is useful for you to like, put that specificity in there, then go for it. Now, if you feel anxiety about that, because you’d like to be a bit more creative and free. And you just want to kind of see what feels right. By all means. There’s many ways to do this. But just having like those criteria, down on a piece of paper on a document, like documented, where you’re posting, when you’re posting how many times you’re posting themes for those posts, like we just talked about, it can be really helpful to do like to theme your months, if that makes it easier, like say, hey,

let’s just talk about that.

Yeah, this month, I’m going to focus on this product product line, you know, and then I’m going to sync all my marketing up with this goal. That’s, that’s an incredibly useful technique. So everything is serving that specific sales goal.

That’s perfect. I

mean, that is, you know, I mean, I talk about that all the time. So I’m glad that you’re reiterating that for people because it just makes it just makes everything you’re doing around your product and your marketing so much easier.

It does, it makes planning easier, for sure. Because when you sit down, you know exactly like you have your kind of creative boundaries, let’s say, it helps you get started. And you can always very, you know, breaks the rules. If you need to, let’s say something pops up, you end up with more inventory of a specific thing, then you need to do some kind of promo or something like that, then of course, can you do that? Sure. It’s your business to do it. But having those like parameters does help the planning and execution, yes, in my experience,

totally, totally. And I’m going to put a link to pages newsletter planner, like I said, because really page talks about this, you get a nice little video, she’s got it all planned out for you. I mean, it’s really, whether you have a sauna, or whether you decide to put it on the spreadsheet, she’s got it all planned out for you. And it just really helps to have something that you don’t have to try to think about how to create those pages, or done that for you. I use pages newsletter planner, so so I’m putting that in the show notes. Because again, you know, these are just those, those those those easy, repeatable things that you have that you know, you’ll do that makes easy wins for your marketing, and that brings people to your products. So so I know, I didn’t realize we were

we can tie over time

we’re over. But that’s okay. Because you know, sometimes these are important things to really kind of flesh out. So people, people hear how they need to really work on this and answer all those questions. So as we are ready to wrap up here, can you just, you know, talk about those, those, just those three tips that people can do to make this easy again, theme. Consistency, you know, those kinds of things. Yeah, first, I

would say document what you’re going to do, like, because that sets the tone for where you need to be when you need to be, you know, you can plan around that. Then you want to make sure you’re executing that. So that’s consistency, right? document it be consistent. And then keep it simple.

Keep it simple,

keep it simple. I mean, I like that content, repurpose your content, across channels, you know, with varying things as you need to just you know, to be channel specific, you know, hashtags, you don’t use hashtags on on Facebook, he’s on Instagram. So, so you know, but those are just small things right? But you You can repurpose your content, your emails that you’re sending to your newsletter, you can turn those into blog posts or videos or posts for your Instagram, you know later on. So keep it simple and just be real strategic about everything you create, get the most mileage out of it.

Okay, and just keep doing it. Don’t Don’t lose faith, because it does work. It may be a little bit of a long game, but it works. And,

yeah, and it takes time to build some momentum and to start seeing what’s working better than others. Because marketing is like an experiment. And it does help to start with things that that we know work, right, what we call best practices. And then once you’re doing those on a consistent basis, you can start to see well work, what works best for you and your customer group. And then you can start to get creative with that. So So just because something like you’ve done something for two weeks, and nothing has happened, like that’s not enough time, like, give something at least three months, right? Cuz Yeah, with consistently at least three months, and, and then start to evaluate what’s working, what’s

not working?

Yes, perfect. That’s a perfect note to end on. Because, again, we are all so busy, and we have so many things going on. But this is really an important piece to to how you’re growing your business. And just to you know, keep that going in those conversations, building your list, you know, having that consistency, so that you you create this system that you can do time and time again and see the results on it. So yeah, Paige, thank you so much for being here. This is a topic that I know, especially for product makers isn’t always easy to talk about because we talk about it differently between service providers and product makers, and you know, if you have a big brand as opposed to a smaller brand, so this has been very helpful. And I will put all your info there because if people need to ask you questions, they can follow you on Instagram, they can follow you on on all your social media to really see Udemy because you demonstrate it very well. So you can see how Paige condense it and on her list and again, I will definitely have a newsletter planner in the show notes so that you can plan out your newsletters

to Yeah, thank you so much out there and get them out there.

Thanks and we’ll see you next time on two hands made this


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