You’ve been at the point where things are working and everything you’re doing screams brave, bold and confident. You can tell anyone, with all the conviction in the world, that they should absolutely buy your products. The whole thing was feeling good.

But maybe you’re questioning things again. Maybe you feel the itch to do something new, expand your line or even move into something else.

Then 2020 hit…which is definitely a year for the books.

It was anything but business as usual.

Many makers have had their best year yet and are wondering how to keep it going…this NEW growth phase that took you just a little bit by surprise.

AND it has you hesitating because you have to face the inevitable…the right of passage that happens when you head into the unknown…again. That place is what Seth Godin calls The Dip.

You might be surprised to know that 78.3% of entrepreneurs are in this growth phase right alongside you.

Today my guest Carolyn Herfurth is going to talk us all through The Dip.

Carolyn is a fierce lovin’, truth-speaking, high-fiving, to-the-point, no BS, business-building force of nature.

She’s been in business for over half of her adult life and remembers what it’s like when you’re lost. When you’re confused. AND when you really need some smart, guidance. (Kinda like a big sister with some serious business skills.)

So pull your chair up to the kitchen table with us…and enjoy the show.

Show notes:

Carolyn Herfurth

Evolve Accelerator

The Grapeseed Company episode 14

Brene Brown – 2 sisters going through burnout 

Maker Marketing (e)Mail – sign up for Christine’s newsletter


Transcript (unedited)

Carolyn, welcome to two hands made this. Hello, hello.

Thank you for joining me today as one of our experts here on the podcast, I’m so excited to talk to you. Because, you know, we have our little chit chats, you know, before we hit the record button, and so much of what you’ve done over the years, has just really, you know, as I’ve been thinking about this over the past couple of days, you have some things that I think really hit home as far as business and whether it’s service or product, or, you know, whatever the level of entrepreneurship, you have this way of thinking in this way of not only being honest, but seeing things in business that I think is going to help our makers in such a way. So I’m just super stoked that you’re here.

I’m happy to be here. And it’s so fun. I love you know, I love talking all things business. So just, you know, hit me, hit me woman

hit yes. Well, you know, and we talked about those, you know, the the ugly cries of failed campaigns, those sweet successes when people just finally hit it, right. And I’m going to ask you for your three tips. But one of the things that really caught me about what you do, and if you could just briefly I want to talk about the dip today. But I want you to start out if you could just going over, because you have a way of talking about the entrepreneurs evolution. And you know, makers go through the exact same process as every other entrepreneur. And then what we’re going to talk about today is that phase three, which people have a hard time getting through, because and you know, especially in our world, the level of mentor or consultant or resource is hard to find. So if you could kind of go into that, before we get into those other successes and failures, I loved for you to talk about that.

That boy, I mean, those great resources can be hard to find, even for people like me, so it’s very, very frustrating. So So I mean, I’m happy to talk about the entrepreneurs evolution, it’s you know, we start off all full of piss and vinegar. And, you know, we’re so excited. And you know, it’s just like, Oh, I have a dream, and we’re just totally pumped. And then reality starts to set in when money isn’t coming in as quickly as we’d like. And sometimes the your that happiness just gets to a point that is so low, because your revenue still haven’t hit where you want them. And that’s what I call the depths of golden would call that the dip. And that’s just it’s it is growth, phase three of the entrepreneurs evolution, and it just what happens in that space? It has, it happens for a lot of reasons. We, we end up there for a lot of reasons. But it happens for a lot of reasons. And what the first thing I want to say is if if you’re listening to this and you identify with being in the dip, which is like basically you I think the way Christine you put it is the ugly cry, like wow, what am I doing? What am I gonna do with my life? What am I doing with my business, um, just know that it’s a rite of passage, like everybody goes through it. So if you think you’re the only one, and you feel any shame, or embarrassment or whatever about it, just please, please, please be gentle with yourself. It’s not. This is not. I mean, if you read the greatest success stories from entrepreneurs, they will tell you their dip moments. So just know, it’s like, I can say that, but when you’re in the dip sometimes.

Oh, it feels horrible. Yeah. Like the shame, the frustration, the shame. The I thought I had such a great idea. Why isn’t anybody you know, why isn’t it sealed? You know, the, if you build it, they will come? Well, I built it. How come people aren’t breaking down my door for this? And yeah, you know, it’s hard again, and it’s frustrating. And I know ultimately, people that are ready to really throw in the towel. But it’s like, you know, just just hang on, because it’s just, it could be just a couple of things you need to figure out that will change all that and get you out of that dip. Yeah. So you know,

I love we have that same spirit where it’s like, No, just don’t give up. Please, please, please like, hang

in there. Here.

It’s just, I mean, I’ll just tell you what I The advice I give people who are in the dip is I have them look at the five pillars of their business. Now I specialize in working with service based businesses, but product businesses can apply this same same pillars. So there are five pillars of business and it’s it’s, I call it the container for your business. And everybody has a little different flavor and way of how they do it and what makes sense for them. But I We start with what’s your business model? How are your offers your products, your services, packaged and priced. So looking at that, and really feeling good about that, that has to make sense. And I think a lot of your people probably do feel good about that. But, you know, there could be some people who are under priced or overpriced, or, you know, and it doesn’t match the market they’re going for. So it’s always looking at that business model first. And then the second thing is from a, from a service based business, it’s, it’s, it’s thought leadership, which I suppose in the product world, it would be like, are you recognized as the go to for this type of jewelry? Like, I just think back in my jewelry buying days, I’d be like, it’s gotta be David yurman? Or it’s got, like, right out, but that’s, and that’s also part marketing. But um, yeah, definitely.

Yeah. And the third pillar is marketing. It’s how are you marketing yourself? What’s the messaging? How are you marketing yourself as the go to for this beauty solution? Or, you know, my soap is the best my facial products or like, whatever it is, how are you marketing yourself. And the fifth is sales. And so, for a lot of product businesses, it’s going to be through retail channels wholesale. online, you might have a little shop at flea markets, or weekend markets or something like that, you know? So there are but looking at, where are the sales made? And how strong Are you in that department. And then the fifth pillar is, and really the fifth pillar should be the first is your mindset, because when you’re when you’re in the dumps, everything else kind of is affected. So if everything’s going well, your mindset seems to be great. But if your mindset is not great, everything will not go as well as they normally would. So what I recommend, and the reason I share the pillars is because it just looking at the each of one of those and saying, okay, on a scale of one to 10, one being low, 10 being high. How do I Where do I think I am right now? Where it Where am I in my business? Do I feel like, I don’t know what the hell I’m selling, or why or I have no idea how to do my pricing, you know, and that’s fine. It’s like, again, there’s no shame in it, it’s just assessing. And they all right, this is my deal. And so, and, and looking at how, you know, going through each of those pillars and giving yourself an assessment, just very honestly, without judgment, without shame, and then seeing where you sit, because I think sometimes we have we over. We catastrophize like oh, my God, the sky is falling. And then when you sit down and look at that, it’s like, well, you know, what, if everything else that looks good, but I haven’t done anything on social media for, you know, 60 days, or, you know, it’s not landing and not getting the likes, or the engagement or, you know, so it is like, it’s a very easy way to just give yourself a little self assessment. You know, and

I’m glad you mentioned those pillars, because one of the things I’m glad I’m really glad you mentioned that business model, because a lot of times when product people just you know, especially when they’re starting out, they look at big business, they look at the corporate models, and you will never fit that, you know, you’ll never be able to succeed with that model. Because you’re not a corporation. You know, you’re an artisan, you’re producing a product. You’re, you know, and so I’m glad you talked about that model, because again, too many times, they’re really holding on to whether it’s an Estee Lauder, or I’ve got a camera thing here. Purple mattress, or you know, Louboutin shoes, you know, they look at, you know, these, again, these corporate run businesses with scads of people and huge marketing budgets and someone else figuring out who their customer base is, you know, who those ideal customers are. So it’s really yeah, it’s really important to just start from the beginning with that model that works. For the product maker like you. So I’m glad you talked about that, again, we we haven’t had a lot of those. And I think, you know, the the makers that are out there now that have been around for 20 or so years, have really like starting to emerge as the model. Because when I first started, I didn’t have anybody. You know, again, I looked at the ladders in the, you know, land homes, and like, you know, the big businesses where that was the only thing I could think of to do again, so, and I think, you know, knowing that, and as we talked about that definitely helps with the ugly cries, because those ugly cries come really early when you think you can do these things that like the bigger businesses can do. So you know, let’s Talk about that, that model that evolution, you know, what does that look like? And what does second guessing look like? And, you know, some of those ugly cries that you have worked with people on?

Oh, I’ve had plenty of ugly cries myself. Um, well, I think one of the things, um, well, okay, so I want to I want to make sure I’m clear on what the question is on that

it was kind of conversation as opposed to question but yeah, go.


well, I just like I will never forget doing and you may have actually been at this event, I will never forget, like, having being at a conference rock the world. And my breakouts were always like, wait list, standing room only people always wanted to be in the room where I was speaking of doing my thing. I had a booth, people would like would flock to it. And I remember one year like, no, like, nobody bought my offer, like maybe one person that I had was making some kind of an offer. I don’t remember it was so long ago. And just thinking, How can I have standing room only and not sell squat? When there are hundreds of women who want me? What am I doing wrong? And that was such an ugly cry moment for me like, and it was more than a moment, several weeks. But, um, but that it’s it just this is where I think the the putting it into perspective by just kind of going, Okay, what did I What am I really doing wrong here? Like is, you know, it’s not everything. And so, I think that that’s important. The other thing is when the ugly cry is happening, and I don’t know, I’ll be curious to hear what your ugly cry moments have been, or your worst or your best one. But I think the other thing is to always know that something better is on the other side, as long as you don’t stay in that space and and allow yourself to be a victim of your own poor self pity.

Yes. And that is very easy to do, especially. And one of the things why, you know, again, why two hands made this came about and why, you know, women helping women especially, is because you need to have that support system, whatever these women look like, whatever your support system is to help pull you out of that. Because, you know, nobody knows an ugly cry more than a woman entrepreneur. You know, I mean, guys do but they don’t do it little process like we do, right? And, you know, they don’t have, you know, snot dripping out of their nose while they had to, you know, the, the tub of ice cream to like, settle that a little bit. But so yeah, so you know, we do need, you know, our people around but again, but then like you said, it’s you give yourself time, but then you got to really sit down and think about, okay, what’s next? And I think that’s what leads to knowing how to think about what’s next. Like, you know, when you talk about the dip, and then you talk about coming out of that, you know, when you talk about mindset, you know, yes, we have to have a strong mindset. Anybody has to have a strong mindset as an entrepreneur, but then, you know, coming out of that dip, you have to have a process of coming out of that. So what does that look like? Carolyn, when you work with people coming out of that dip?

Yeah. So I, I work with a framework that, that starts with self inquiry. So it’s the pillars, you know, looking at those pillars, but also looking at your history, hangups, and heroics. So, and I’ll Break That down to tune into what’s really going on. So if you look at your history and say, you know, in business, right, or even in life for corporate before you started your business, or as a mom, or is that like, whatever, just looking, looking at your history and saying, Okay, this is what I’ve done, up until this point, I’ve created this product line, I’ve done this, I’ve gotten into the stores, you know, this is what, you know, just kind of a little summary of that. And then I think it’s important to look at your hang up. So that’s that can lead into your beliefs, it can it can be the headaches, like why does this feel like such an awful time right now, what what is pointing you towards this, this, this belief that things are completely all you know, like all the wheels are falling off? So, so I look at hangups is those are your beliefs, it’s patterns that don’t serve you. I was telling you before the call started You know, my favorite Irishman love him dearly, but he has a tendency to catastrophize. And it sends him into like this, you know, this, these these moments where he’ll just be like, Oh my god, I’m going to be sleeping on a park bench and like, do you just stop? But if we can take that, like if we can look at our hang ups and just step back from it a little bit. It’s great. I’m actually Well, I’ll say this in a second, but and then look at your heroics. What are all the amazing things that you’ve done? I just think it’s so important. I don’t know about you, Christine. But I keep a swipe file. Like I have a whole folder in Evernote, I’ve got hundreds and hundreds of emails and letters and videos and things that people have said that are positive about my writing, how I helped them, you know, obvious client success stories, like all of that stuff, but like, even the little things, because I’m like, I just know, I’m gonna have to go back and read this someday, you

know, what I’m going to make this little note here. And that this is your first call to action in this episode is for everybody listening, create that swipe file for yourself, your heroics count, that is such a good point, because, and I really I hate to keep saying, as women, we don’t do that enough, we can certainly see, you know, all the all the other things that we’ve done that, you know, have been either frustrating, or I failed at this or whatever. But it’s really important to look at those rocks, especially with your mindset, and especially going forward in your business. Because those heroics are those things like, Oh, you know, what they make you realize, you know, what, I really do know what I’m doing. And I really can do this. And I really can move past this and people, people really like me, you know, but people like my products, you know, they say it’s worth to keep going, Yeah, right?

I have a client who will still she’s not a client anymore. She’s kind of, you know, she’s good. But um, she will often say to me, we still keep in touch quite frequently, she will often say, I will never forget the conversation when I wanted to quit. And I will never forget you saying to me, Well, have you ever been in a situation where you were able to, you know, like, get out of it and come up better on the other side? You know, just let’s give me one example. And she gave me an example on the phone that day, and because I’ll never forget that. You know, it totally flipped the way she like she looked at her heroics, she looked at the things that she’s done to pull herself up before. And sometimes we’re just tired. And it’s time to say goodbye. And there’s no shame in that either. You know, but I, but so that. So you asked how I walk people through this that inquiry. That means reviewing the three H’s, the history, hangups, and heroics is something that really just helps people kind of, like, have a little more objective,


View of their situation, along with rating their pillars and ranking them and just going, Oh, this isn’t as bad as I thought, you know, at least now I know, I think I think the ugly cry for me has always happened when everything has felt so overwhelming. And I haven’t had a container. I don’t want someone to tell me step by step what to do. I want to containers, but I can still do things my own way. And I’m probably not alone in that. So you know,

well, yeah. When you start, you know, when you’re not new to business anymore, and you’re in you know, several years in business, and you’re really rising to that six, seven figures. Yeah, you don’t it’s you don’t need those, you know, step by step, tell me what to do things. But you do need, like you said, you need that container, or another container to say, okay, maybe I do need to put some of my things in a new container, because I need to shift a little bit. Speaking of that, so let me give you a hurlock. From my end for Yeah, I want to hear because so we met Oh my God, I didn’t want to think about how long ago it was now, but a while ago, several, several years ago. So what’s your first event, we first moved to the city. And I was the big winner of having a lunch with you. Which was awesome. And at the time, I was in the phase of I had been doing more coaching. And I was like, Okay, do I completely let go my product business? Or do I completely let go the coaching business, there’s something that just wasn’t working and and what I ended up actually doing is because I was feeling very stuck. That that was one of my big crime moments. So thank you for helping me through that. But um, you know, and this is, you know, this goes for so many makers, you know, I was at that point where I was working my butt off, and I wasn’t making the sales and again, why the transition to also helping other women but how can I help other women if I’m stuck in this place? So it was like that, that that go around? And um what I ended up doing with your advice is I went back and created a product business from scratch again, I mean, I really rebranded I renamed my business, I went from scratch, to show what show women how to start from zero and build your business back up. So thank you for Thank you. That was my hurled for you. Thank you for that, because that was a pivotal moment for me, you know, but again, we need our you know, we need people to help us through that. Let’s see clearer, because a lot of times we can’t see clearly because there’s too much mud around bits, just yeah, fog.

You know, and we can spend a lot of time tinkering and avoiding and polling people. But that doesn’t really move the needle. Sometimes when you’re in the dip, like the dip is the dip, man. I mean, you got that you need something more than, hey, what do you think? What do you think? What do you think you like, totally serious, it’s, sometimes it’s the hardest to have that that one person and make that decision to hire someone or find that person who can help you through it? Because you’re kind of like, Am I throwing good money after bad? And, yes, so there is a recommitment in the dip, you know, I felt like committer concede, you know, it’s just like, do you want to keep going or not, and it’s okay, if you don’t just, it’s fine. Like you can see to your coaching business, and you committed to the product business, that was your, that was your decision in that moment. And it turned out to be a great decision for you. Right, but I couldn’t, I was always a little, I was always a little sad that you went the product route, because it would have been so fun to, you know, play in the service pool with you, but now you’re back.

But here we are, again, just in a different way. You know, and yes, and, and this was the point with that, too, is, is now because I’ve done it for so long, I can work with other women in their marketing, you know, because again, this is all about marketing, like those ideas and those ways to you know, get out of the the marketing dip as well. Um, so let’s kind of most I want to go on that dip, because I’m thinking about now those sweet successes, because now that you know, give me my hero, I can, you know, my my own sweet success moving out of that. When you work with people, what are some of those sweet successes that you’re seeing? Because, again, you know, you have to have that hard talk in the depth about, you know, moving forward, are you conceding? And you know, what are some of those things that as you work with people, kind of like those aha moments? Yeah, look, I don’t love using that term. But then that brings them to a point where they’re, they’re like, I’m all in and here I go, and then you know, they can take off again.

Yeah. Well, my history has been in working with service based businesses. So you know, women come to me, where they say, and I’m branching out a little bit more. But you know, historically, when we talk about the sweet successes, women come to me because A, they have an idea they want to pursue, and they want a sounding board. So they get it, like really right. And then the other person who comes to me are usually the people who are experiencing a little bit of a dip. And the dip might be financial, it might be a moat, you know, mindset, it might be mark, like, it could be a lot of different things. But they’re coming to me saying, I know something’s got to change. I don’t know what to create next. I don’t know. So it’s not necessarily how do I fix this? In some cases, there’s fixing to be done. But oftentimes, it’s the what is, what can I do that’s going to be the winner, because whatever I’m offering right now isn’t fueling me anymore. Or, you know, like, so do those. Does that delay?

Because product made for product makers, you know, it’s there’s so passionate, but it could be, you know, my product line, you know, maybe I have too many products, or maybe I need to hone down, maybe it’s my marketing, because I really haven’t, you know, maybe I’ve pivoted a bit, and I’m really not talking to the right audience. And, you know, I’m not creating the right messages that that connect with my audience, or, you know, maybe I’m thinking, you know, along the lines of, Hey, I really love to have these really gigantic wholesale accounts, but in at, you know, in reality, you know, somewhere, you’re not ready to handle that yet. How can you build up to that? So I mean, yes, it’s product or service. I think we think, you know, we all think that way, when we’re moving when we’re moving and growing.

Yes, yeah, exactly. So when I think about sweet successes, it mean for my clients, what I observe is the renewed engagement with their business and their love and passion for seeing that they can still do what they love. But do it in a different way. And so just the, like, I see people walk, I live Upper West Side of New York, and I have a patio. So I often will have clients to my place during, you know, non pandemic time. Um, so when I fit, but you know, I see it also over zoom when we do our work together. But I always start off with the half day like dive in innovation session. And I love seeing someone come in, I had a client come in a while back, who said, Oh, my God, I have a migraine, I’m in so much pain, she already was like down about her business. And she literally skipped out of my place three and a half hours later worked all weekend to implement changes, and started making sales on the tiniest bit of strategy that we changed by then within a few days. And so, to me, I think the the sweet successes are the shift in energy, when you get a plan that you’re totally on board with, and a strategy. So I mean, that kind of also went on to book $180,000 in 30 days, but you know, the width, the winds kind of stacked up like a to Oh my god, this is amazing. I can’t wait to get home

to Oh my god, I love that.

Yeah. Um, and so it’s so interesting, because I feel like my clients, money is the secondary success. Yep. Primary is the really feeling like, on fire about their business and feeling the meaning that they bring, and that they get from doing what they do. And it’s like, oh, yeah, look at it, I’m making all this money. You know, so there’s that that piece, but my people are not usually money first, they are meaning first money Next,

you know, and that’s what, you know, the makers in our community are very much like that as well, they have this passion for this thing they do. And it really isn’t about the money. They’re excited that they’re making money and that they’re growing this business, but at least because they have this passion for this thing that they do. And they touched so many different people. And again, it’s you know, it’s not necessarily about the soap or the candle or the body lotion, or, you know, the the leather bag, it’s just about the the how they touch people in a way that people are like, Oh my god, this is the coolest thing.

Yeah, you know,

holes with successes that

I have to say the name of this podcast, two hands. I love it so much. Like when you first told me about the name of your podcast, I got the chills. I have them right now. Which is my body going Oh, so great. I love it. Because it, it really represents the love that people put into their work. And yeah, sure, you can eventually like get to a place where that’s the whole more automated and you’re outsourcing. But there there is. And so if you’re working with your two hands, and your energy is not good about the rest of your business, how does what like how does that carry over into the products you’re making? Totally? Oh, yes.

And, you know, again, with the, if you’re not passionate about it, you make okay products, and you’ll make okay sales, and you’ll have okay customers or you may end up having those customers that, you know, they’re gonna buy on a discount, or, you know, you’re not Top of Mind, they just so happen to you know, Google something and you came up, but you know, that’s really and that’s kind of, and that’s okay, you know, for those people, that’s okay. But, you know, for for makers, that do you have that passion, it’s just, it’s, it’s electrifying to see how people are when, you know, what I love most is when I’m going either to a market or to a store or, you know, a friend’s brick and mortar. And I walk in and just observe, and I see how they are with customers, and they see the customers that walk in and like their friends and like, Oh my god, I’m so excited. You know, it’s just so neat to see because it’s just, it’s kind of like just that that natural. What am I looking for? What’s the word? I’m looking for that reaction that people have? Because the energy is so good, so genuine. Yeah, it’s genuine, it’s real. You know, and that’s the beautiful thing, you know, when you know when when makers are really in that sweet spot. And, you know, again, I wanted to talk to you about that dip because what happens with makers too is is they feel like maybe I’m not in my sweet spot anymore. When they hit that dip, and it’s so not the case. It’s just like you said some of those things. Just need to be you know, the strategy needs to shift or the plan needs to change A little bit. It’s not you don’t need to throw in the towel for everything. Right? Right. So which brings me I’ll go ahead you have one thing that you have something to say

first and remember that this happened like it’s the entrepreneurs evolution, the dip, you know, we go through it more than once. It’s just that the dips may not get as Dippy. You know, like, the more experienced you are, but sometimes the dips can get even like, I have, I have definitely had some of my worst dips, the more money I’m making, because, like all the golden handcuffs, and, you know, so there’s so it’s just, it’s just part of business, I think when you can identify it like, oh, here I am, again, hello, dip, how do we get out of you right away? It’s like, Where am I on my pillars? And what are my What are my, what’s the history, hang ups and heroics. And like just going alright, I’ve got my little container for doing a quick audit, and let’s move on.

You know what it totally and as a maverick, I’m going to refer back to our episode, which I’ll put it in the show notes where I’m talking to Kristin Fraser from the group seed, you know, she had a huge dip. And again, it’s her business was as big as it’s ever been. And she had a major dip. So I’m just gonna kind of leave that hanging there. And I will put the episode saying to everybody can go listen to that episode. But, you know, a NASA thing is is, you know, she figured out how to come out of it. Yeah, you know, but again, yeah, sometimes the more money we make the bigger our businesses, the more we’re thinking about whether we have employees or not, or you know, how many more wholesale, there’s the only way to put us there feels like there’s more at stake. So that does feel like there’s it’s definitely it’s way deeper here. But there there is, it levels off on the other side.

Well, and also we feel like we have more to lose. And there’s more at stake. There is something you know, and it’s like, well, I built up my business, and everybody knows me for this. And I’ve always done it this way. And there’s something like we have a resistance to going, Okay, well, something needs to change. It’s okay. Like if we always just like, think about fashion, if we were still wearing hula hoops, you know that we are in combat. Wear them until they come back around again, like the cool that’s gonna go your business is the same way. And so I’ll never forget coolest, I just

thought about cool. Lots, I think since I was in sixth grade. The shoulder pads? Oh, no, you may have loved them, but they’re just gonna go to

you don’t keep wearing them, you know,

keep wearing them. Let’s talk about those three, you know, because as we’re talking about the Oh, what are those things that we do to you know, come out of that dip and send those cool, lots pack in those, those three tips that you have for brands to come out of that depth?

Well, I mean, really, the The first one is one we’ve already talked about is just recognizing where you are. And, and just going. Okay, all right, like just take the charge out of what’s making you feel like you’re failing. Take the charge out of it. That’s the first thing

that perfect everything personally.

Yes. Yeah, it just Yeah, absolutely. Um, and then the next thing is just innovate and brainstorm. Like I’m not, you know, I will do a certain amount of polling or research and asking people you know, we just did something like that recently where I’m was asking some some questions just to do a little market research. And, and I think doing that, and not projecting what how you think it needs to be or what it is or how people see you. It’s that innovations. It’s it’s the, and I don’t like polling, I don’t like asking people. Well, what do you think I should do? Like, like, not like that, which I mean, sometimes if you’re in a mastermind, you’ve been with that mastermind for a really long time. They may have a pigeon holed you. Well, you should totally, or be it’s kind of fly by stuff and you hope you get a good nugget. It’s a nice support system, but it’s not always like as objective as I think. Having someone so so the when I talk about asking, researching, it’s your clients, you can ask people around you, you can ask employees like so. It’s that innovation. And I think that the other thing is just always as you implement those changes, just optimize and just know this is not the final iteration of your business, the business As I Carolyn her birth have today is not the final iteration of my business. I had a couple years ago, what I thought probably four years ago was the final iteration of my business. I’m like, I can ride this frickin thing to my coffin. Are you kidding me? As soon as I have that, like that this is the my final iteration. God laughed. That’s really cute. Carolyn, you know, the universe was just like,

No, you just wait to see what I’ve got for you coming up?

Yeah. It’s just like that acceptance of things are going to be changing. And so how do you stay light on your feet? How do you hold things lightly, so that you can adapt more quickly? So I probably gave you more than three things. But But

yeah, that’s my,

my approach. And it’s easier said than done. I really think having a support system for it is, is really helpful. And, you know, I think back to, you know, the lunch we had, which I’m going to say it was nine years ago. Oh, right. Um, I didn’t have the language. Like, I asked you the question. And I remember you going, Oh, I decided to do product. I remember the conversation very clearly. But it’s conversations like that, that led to my body of work in terms of talk, oh, there’s this evolution entrepreneurs go through? And what are those things and there are decisions people have to make. So what I like to do is really look at the pattern. So I didn’t have the language nine years ago to say, oh, Christine, you’re in the dip. But you could look back and go, that’s where I was. Yes, totally.

Right now, yeah, that like, Oh, yeah, of course. That’s what it was. Yep. Yeah.

So I’m just, you know, just as an aside, I think it’s really, when I first started my coaching business, which was over 18 years ago, I’m one of the things that stuck with me very early, as you can’t see yourself through your own eyes. That’s why you need a coach. That’s why you need someone like you to, you know, to provide services, people like me to provide services like it’s hard to do it yourself, because you don’t see your blind spots. And I think just knowing that and accepting that I just I realized late last year that I had burned out and I didn’t realize it, it took like I’d been on burnout for months and months and months. I didn’t even realize it until I listened to a Bernie brown podcast talking to two sisters who wrote a book on burnout. I was like, that’s what I’ve been going through.

Oh my god.

I hope that people who are listening to this and hearing about the dip and having a way to brew that you just know there is a way through and you don’t have to give up.

I love that What a perfect what a What a perfect note to end this on. You don’t have to give up. So thank you, Carolyn, thank you so much for being here today. Thank you for sharing your wisdom. You know there’s there’s just so much respect going out to you for what you’ve done. What you do for women, how you how you have evolved over the years, and how you’ve been very open and transparent and genuine about those shifts because it’s helped everyone that you’ve worked with. I mean it certainly did help me here I am doing something totally different again. But you know, again, thank you for that. I will share all your good stuff in the show notes as well as I’m going to also put a link to the evolution accelerator in there for anybody that wants to check that out. Carolyn in that program talks a lot about what we’re talking about today on the podcast. So and and I will put in the grave seat and also a Brene Browns episode as well. So and for any of you listening that have not joined my list. I will have put that link in there so you can get on my email list. And I will see you next time on two hands made this.

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